tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3065470223862953372.post8869477075289402344..comments2023-05-01T05:10:51.189-04:00Comments on Simple Neat and Wrong: torture memos, Eichmann, and irrevocable irresolutionReginahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06174621533684837855noreply@blogger.comBlogger4125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3065470223862953372.post-81327489346340020862009-04-23T17:13:00.000-04:002009-04-23T17:13:00.000-04:00Hi Peter, thanks for taking the time to comment!
...Hi Peter, thanks for taking the time to comment!<br /><br />I wanted to address a somewhat more narrow topic than what I think you're discussing. You're definitely pointing to a real phenomenon regarding Zimbardo's "guard" and Nazi prison camp guards; many actively took on a way of living and seeing the world that allowed them to do a variety of quite terrible things. But I wanted to highlight a narrower case: people who are instructed to do a specific range of actions, and who engage in only those specific actions. Under what circumstances may they later be held responsible?<br /><br />Similarly, this is supposed to exclude Jack Bauer-type events. The real life CIA torturers went to the federal government and asked permission to employ their techniques, which they then duly received. So they were "following orders", in a way that Jack Bauer signally doesn't.<br /><br />Certainly the issues you raise are interesting. I just wanted to narrow the focus in the post, to bring to our attention a highly particular range of moral questions.Reginahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06174621533684837855noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3065470223862953372.post-31490011429958577862009-04-21T00:40:00.000-04:002009-04-21T00:40:00.000-04:00Very well... Interesting. I see your point but I t...Very well... Interesting. I see your point but I think that generally people loose the action while philosophing about things taking the 'simplicity' out of it - is my point of view. Common sense... It's missing. Just to say to begin with something.<br /><br />The book - I'm glad we both read it. Well, I take Mr. Zimbardo's experiment in the way that... The guards identifying them selfs too quickly with their roles - isn't that exactly the effect of 'they were told to do so'... The role of 'authority' was one of Zimbardo's points. As the soldier who was on the pictures with the female soldier and of course with the infamous pyramid of prisoners. The authority puts people into position when they have to question their own ... believes... that's the 'better' case in this difficult position. Meaning - the person at the beginning didn't have the intent to do anything close to that but... they were 'pushed' to it by orders, by higher authority taking 'responsibility' for those orders - but apparently not for the actions since... who ended up punished. Isn't that so? So at the point when the abuse went 'far' from what they were told or allowed to do... I mean - what's not normal on that. They were pushed to the point - it doesnt matter if somebody 'broke' sooner or faster' - the point is they reached the point and stepped over it. But... its an effect coming from circumstances. They were told. 'pushed', kept in it. Even Zimbardo himself regretted to let it go so far, that he himself kind of jumped into the 'role'. Am I right? <br /><br />On the other side - nobody tells us how many of these lets say world war ii atrocities were done with 'will'... But we do know that huge amount of officers at that time were fearing Hitler. Fear is a huge factor. Fear, chaos, orders, TRYING to belong to something thats more than you, because you don't have... ah, my english.. I don't know all the words. Like - rather chose to be part of this machinery than to be alone in fear. It's easier to spread fear, even tho while fearing. Very interesting thing happened to me. A young friend from Florida was writing about WWII. She chose to describe these cruel deeds during the war by finding somewhere a passage about high number of SS officers committing suicides in the camps, because of what they were in charge of. That shocked me. That this was chosen by a young person, who... well apparently didn't have enough informations about that time and event itself - the high suicide rates were supposed to describe how horrible it was there, as opposed to just write the number of people killed, gassed, tortured, executed, experimented with in the camps - in that short time. I use this again - as issue of being informed properly and as an information new too me as well (the suicide rates). <br />Is it not enough visible that only 'power structures' enable such behaving? Army, gangs... I mean.. give me one more example. I cannot find one. Everywhere where some idiot with agenda rules with strong hand - the others fearing and longing for better position in their sick system - are 'willing' to do things like this. My opinion.. I don't force it on you.<br /><br />And our 'case at hand' as you call it. It's... Your call for intelligence agents not needing constantly second-guessing their actions - its Jack Bauer. They hate him, they want him 'out' but... he saved the country in every episode. Where peace loving people live their lives in .. peace during the day... secret agents shoot at each other at night. Just a 'picture'. I think every country with strategic power - has an agency that will tell president that they are under constant possible threat. Thats their job tho. It's like hoping one day that soldier will tell you that he doesn't need gun. It won't happen. Isn't that bit bended? It's their reality. So if you ask me how to make intelligence effective in this case... Its such a super long story. What if I just answer, that there were so many whistleblowers trying to prevent the act that lead to the things that happened followed by the interrogations we talk about. I guess to listen then would be effective. (I know its not an answer per se... But to type my thoughts and I'm actually typing as I think its not easy. I'm sure after I send this and you respond and I read your new respond and re-read my part again - I will maybe beat my head, that I didn't rather write this or that instead of that example.. It's a very broad topic, interconnected with so many things. But that was the only reason why I wrote at the beginning a simple respond. Responsibility is a key word for OUR actions. There are very few things in our lifes we can actually blame others for. Because we all have a choice. And my name is Peter, I just didn't know how to comment, you're the first person EVER I write something to... Except facebook. But thats... not that 'deep' :). Have a wonderful dayAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3065470223862953372.post-86513722150782636992009-04-20T22:52:00.000-04:002009-04-20T22:52:00.000-04:00Hello.
I'm not sure I follow your reasoning. It s...Hello.<br /><br />I'm not sure I follow your reasoning. It seems clear to me that this is not correct: "all the evil events that happened in world wars were because and only because: 'i was told to do so'." Plainly evil events require more than someone who voluntarily carries them out - someone else must first give the orders. <br /><br />And many of the people doing these horrible things are entirely too willing to do them, not simply because they've been given orders. Indeed, that is a prominent finding in the infamous "prison experiment" conducted by Philip Zimbardo, the author of the book you reference. Zimbardo noted that many of the arbitrarily-selected prison "guards" quickly self-identified with their roles, and created their own forms of abuse and degradation for the "prisoners", even absent any order from an authority figure to do so.<br /><br />Returning to the case at hand - I'm not sure who are the "both sides" you wish to hold responsible. As I've suggested, I don't believe we should be punishing the CIA torturers in this instance, for exactly the reasons I articulated in motivating the Good Faith Principle (and Obama gave in his Statement). If intelligence agents must constantly second-guess their actions, they will be ineffective. Do you have an objection to this view?Reginahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06174621533684837855noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3065470223862953372.post-37648845387131674802009-04-20T21:03:00.000-04:002009-04-20T21:03:00.000-04:00i like the article. but... people feel that there ...i like the article. but... people feel that there is an 'issue', like this journalist - btw the 'Good Faith Principle' and the 'Eichmann Principle'. ITS NOT! its a no brainer but again - people don't have enough info to make that call. Well - the answer is here. <br /><br />http://www.lucifereffect.com/<br /><br />Book by a professor of social psychology - the answer is there.. I give a hint - all the evil events that happened in world wars were because and only because: 'i was told to do so'. Then there is space for the Orderer to feel not responsible because he didn't do it and the Orderee to feel just as executioner, but not responsible, because it wasn't his idea. Could we stop write articles about who to blame, and just HOLD BOTH SIDES RESPONSIBLE?!<br />Come on!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com